Curse

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I can't beleive so many people are saying prophesies is the best place to learn how to play! You spend most of the game below level 20 and you're almost finished the game by the time that you get your full attribute spread. All prophesies teaches you is how to play a low leveled character which you will be doing for only a tiny fraction of your gaming time.

Night fall gets you to level 20 and full attributes early so you can actually start learning how to play the GW, but at the same time doesn't have the massive jump in difficulty that was present at the end of Factions newbie island.

Skyy High · Feb 28, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I can't beleive so many people are saying prophesies is the best place to learn how to play! You spend most of the game below level 20 and you're almost finished the game by the time that you get your full attribute spread. All prophesies teaches you is how to play a low leveled character which you will be doing for only a tiny fraction of your gaming time.

Night fall gets you to level 20 and full attributes early so you can actually start learning how to play the GW, but at the same time doesn't have the massive jump in difficulty that was present at the end of Factions newbie island.

Yes, it is the best place to learn how to play the game. You're slowly introduced to the game mechanics: spells, skills, hexes, enchants, stances, interrupts, aggro management, what builds work best, what fail, etc etc...and you get to learn these lessons while staying at a relatively constant level, only gradually gaining levels, so you don't end up getting thrown as a lvl20 into a group of jade brotherhood and going "WTF?!"

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Yes, it is the best place to learn how to play the game. You're slowly introduced to the game mechanics: spells, skills, hexes, enchants, stances, interrupts, aggro management, what builds work best, what fail, etc etc...and you get to learn these lessons while staying at a relatively constant level, only gradually gaining levels, so you don't end up getting thrown as a lvl20 into a group of jade brotherhood and going "WTF?!"

No, it is the best place to learn how to play the game as a low level character against gimped monsters. It doesn't matter how well you can kill charr L8 char when you're L10 so why do you need to practice doing it? What matters is your ability to deal with L24/28 creatures as a L28 toon with the full range of skills available to you.

Prophesies training is the reason why you see mending warriors, breeze monks and firestorm eles. It teaches you to equip the skills they hand to you and not to think about your builds instead of scanning the full array of skills and learning to think about the skills and their synergies (or lack thereof).

You'll probably get owned the first couple of times you hit the L24 mandragors, and thats a good thing because it will show you what works and doesn't work. Most first time prophesies players are lucky if they've picked up these lessons by the time that they're in the ring of fire.

ss1986v2 · Feb 28, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Prophesies training is the reason why you see mending warriors, breeze monks and firestorm eles. It teaches you to equip the skills they hand to you and not to think about your builds instead of scanning the full array of skills and learning to think about the skills and their synergies (or lack thereof).

this is the issue here, but its as much the players fault as it is the chapters. players see things like mending, breeze, and firestorm working at lower levels and never bother to change. the game doesnt tell them not to adapt, they ignore superior skills available to them (based on "its worked so far, why change?'). i can make it through prophecies with an empty skill bar, does that mean i should play that way for the rest of my GW time? of course not.

even i started with crappy builds in prophecies (warrior using minions. yeah, i was a noob). but as i made my way through the game, i started dropping my necro spells, getting rid of my foci and grabbing a shield, leaving power attack behind, and began picking up the better skills along the way. by the time i had reached the desert, the game had weened me off of those bad habits. sure i could have kept grinding along with my sub-par builds, but i would have had to be stupid to do so, which i think is where the real problem really lies.

i totally see your point, and agree with it to a point. but you cant blame the chapter for poor quality of player. anyone who looks at 6 hp healing per second (mending...) and thinks to themselves, "w00t! i gotta have that!", i dont think it matters where they start. just look at nightfall for example: i cant count the number of dervs ive seen standing in about every mission outpost screaming "l337 AoB derv tank LFG! why Noone wanTs me!!1!!1!".

stupidity is universal, not chapter exclusive...

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

I think you're missing my point. Maybe I can express it better ...

Prophesies enables learning and growth
As a first time player you can finish the game without ever thinking about the dynamics of the game. For example, I played a mesmer as my first character, and I don't think I ever played without empathy, backfire and energy tap on my bar because the game handed me the skills in pre-searing and didn't give me a reason to change them. After playing for longer, I learned the importants of interrupts and disruption in general but it took my own initiative to reach those conclusions.

Factions and Nightfall promote learning and growth
Factions and Nightfall provide sufficiently difficult challenges in sufficiently large steps that it is impossible to continue without learning dynamics of the game. Factions even included such valuable lessons as intrupts and knockdowns as part of the shing jea training (I don't know why this concept was dropped for nightfall).

ss1986v2 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Factions and Nightfall promote learning and growth
Factions and Nightfall provide sufficiently difficult challenges in sufficiently large steps that it is impossible to continue without learning dynamics of the game. Factions even included such valuable lessons as intrupts and knockdowns as part of the shing jea training (I don't know why this concept was dropped for nightfall).

again, i agree with this to a point. but my issue with factions is the drastic increase in difficulty from the island to the mainland. yes, you are forced to play better to progress (which is a good thing). but what if you havnt learned how to play better yet? the island is so easy that some dont learn how to play there. and if you simply dont know how to play at a competitive level, how do you learn? factions offers very few options for this situation. on a scale of 10, the mission difficulty goes from about a 3 at the end of the island, to about a 7 on the mainland. again, i offer the picture of coming out of pre at lvl 20 and being dropped right into the southern shiverpeaks. if you survive, youll be fine, but what about those that cant survive?

heck, i remember coming over to factions with my tyrian chars and running into that afflicted [email protected] at the beginning and thinking "wow, they really did a good job of ratcheting up the difficulty!". then thinking, "wow, no wonder ppl have been bashing on the newbie assassins; no way they can make it through this!". and to an extent, you could see it in game. i had 3 members of one of my old guilds never get their sins past the 2nd or 3rd mission on the mainland. they had started in factions (no prophecies experience), and were still using god awful builds, sub-par skills, and poor ingame tactics (zero concern for aggro control for example). they knew how to kill low level mantids, guardsman, and an occasional afflicted in the teens, but got eaten alive by lvl 20 ahn fan, jade brotherhood, and wave after wave of afflicted.

eventually they put the sins on the shelf for a bit, rolled one of the core classes, and had some of the more experienced player help walk them through those first missions, and teach them how to play their respected classes. they were lucky. they found ppl who had already learned these lessons and could help teach them (fill in the blanks left after leaving the island). without some of us teaching them the ropes, i dont see how they would have ever made in through factions (in fact, we lost one of the new guys, said he was going back to WoW). they later went back and finished up with their sins, but only after they had learned a bit more about the game mechanics.

its not that i think starting in factions is a bad thing. by the time you finish factions, you are probably farther along ability wise than someone who has only finished prophecies. but some players need a slower learning curve, which is why i think prophecies is better for the first time player.

Mclarenf1905 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I think It all comes down to what type of gamer/learner you are.
For me I pick up on things very quickly, therefore I found that Factions has helped me develop my skills at a faster rate that coincides with my learning style.
Rather than learning from mistakes one at a time like in prophecies due to the slower game progression, In factions as soon as your pushed out into Cathan you have to learn from them right off the bat and for the most part fix these right away.
Nightfall I can't couch for becuase as of now I don't have but from what it looks like its more of a medium between the two, It also allows you to learn at your own pace due to the addition of the heroes, also from what it sounds the difficulty level is lower than factions but higher than Proph, and the game progression also seems to have found a medium, it doesn't shove you right out with a sword and say here you go, but it doesn't hand feed you all the information you need before putting you into the lv 20 range.

As for proph, I touched on this a bit and has been mentioned previously multiple times, It runs at a much slower rate to the others, so if your more a casual gamer or just can't find the time to play this may be the best choice for you, or if you find it takes you longer to pick up on things or simply like life at a slower pace this game seems more fitting.

So
Prophecies=Slower Casual Gamer
Factions= Predetermined pace-faster learner/Hardcore gamer
Nightfall=Set your own pace-medium between the too

But this is just my opinion so think what you wish.

Ravenwing · Feb 28, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhizy

Hi,

I'm a new player of GW, just got NF last week. Previously mostly played WoW.

So far I've taken my Mo/E to level 8. Still on the Island doing quests - have completed the Meet the General? quest. A few of the quests I'm running into seem a little tough and my group of two heroes and 1 henchie are going down from time to time. Guess I still need to learn how to manage the group effectively and/or need to level a little more before I take on some of the quests. What level should I be before advancing further through the main quests/missions and heading to the mainland? I have 9 skill points in my Monk, should I be using these yet to pick up new skills or holding on to them? If use them which skills do you suggest? Would Breeze of healing be of any use - I noticed a skills merchant had this available? (apologies if this should really be asked in the Monk forum area?).

With all of this in mind, I'm think about picking up Prophecies, adding it to my account and restarting a Monk there. Is it possible to do this - restart a new character in Prophecies? Or am I now stuck with starting out from Nightfall and only linking in to the other campaigns at a later point? I do want to play through all three campaigns, trying out a few different classes and also eventually to get into some PvP action.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Cheers,

To start with in answer to second question. You can start characters in any of the chapters you have on your account. You could even have 10 monks if you had the slots and that was what you wished to do, but you can delete and create anywhere on your account.

You see, this is another occasion where Prophecies shines through. If you start in Prophecies you are not only opening your own skills up, but also the skills for core class heroes. If you start in Nightfall, you not only have to get hold of skills for yourself but also for your heroes. On the same line as well, the new player has not only got to try and put a build together for their own character, but also for their heroes. That is why people that are starting in Nightfall are having such a hard time. Not only have they got a lack of knowledge, but also a lack of skills and the skill points to purchase them.

A lot of people that started in Prophecies many moons ago and are preaching to others to start in Factions or Nightfall seem to forget one thing, where did they gain their knowledge and skills. In Prophecies of course. It might be long and boring moving through Tyria to some of you who have been through umpteen times, but surely with your experience you can slam through in no time. My mesmer went from pre to THK in about 3 days, doing every quest, mission and bonus along the way with henchies. Yes I done it like that because I gained nearly 80 skills that I didn't have to purchase or use valuable skill point on. The only reason my mesmer is still sitting at THK is because I decided to start some stop in pre chars to help new players.

So yes, if you are a seasoned players it probably is best for you to start in the second or third chapter if you prefer to lvl fast or gain your heroes rather than skills. I still say for people that are completely new to GW are best starting in Prophecies.